============================================================================ _______ _ _ | |\ /| | | | /~~\ | \/ | /~~\ /~~\ |\ | /~~~\ | | | | | | | | | | | | \ | ~---_ | \/\/ \__/ | | \__/ \__/ | \| \___/ - An ElfQuest MUSH. ============================================================================ --- THE PLACE --- Magic System Test Range (Ground Zero) A large area, at least a hundred acres, used for the testing of Vale's questionable coding of Self-Upgrading Magic. Whether it's a biovirus or an atomic explosive is questionable. There's a little desk in the middle of the featureless plain with his old Apple //c. Two Moons Master Room (#10) The Magic Setting Room (#269) +Magic Functions (#82) Tribal Magics List (#621) Magic Help Texts (#4103) Contents: Listener/Analyzer for Magic Checks Massive Magic Checking Code Old Chat System Numbers-for-Magic New-Age Update Blood-Magic Obvious exits: out --- THE LOG --- Mender has arrived. Stormfist ummms, "How're things going as far as magic-stuffs?" Vale says "Mm. You're not on the chief mailing list, are you." Stormfist should be... Vale says "Have you been reading about the Massive Magic Chart Debate?" Stormfist says "A little. I've gpt an alt who -is- on the list." Vale says "Well, I mean email." Stormfist ohs, guess not... Vale says "Well, this is about the upcoming magic upgrade system, and the problems and answers and confusions and my it's actually a nice day outside." Stormfist grins and nods. Vale waves hands. "This is my laboratory." WolfFlame has arrived. Stormfist says "Nice place." Vale says "Thanks. Feel free to play with Blood-Magic if you get bored. Anyhow, the system..." Stormfist grins. Vale waits for Savah... Savah has arrived. Vale says "Okay." Savah says "Ello all." Vale says "The basic idea of the system is to automate the natural increases of magic over an elf's lifetime. Or that was the original concept." Stormfist remembers that a bit from the last meet... Vale wasn't there, so. Stormfist says "We were discussing the exact ammount of increase per age category..." Vale says "Were you? Huh, well, that's nice. No one told me about that part." Stormfist hrms, "You should've been told..." Vale says "Almost all of this code has been sitting here for the better part of a year." Savah says "Logs are available, I'm surprised if Geolin didn't tell the wizards as well.... :)" Vale says "Well, that's a /log/." Stormfist nods. Vale says "And to be honest, I wasn't prepared to have the chiefs gang up and say, 'No, we don't like it; change it.'" Savah says "Well, that's within chiefly mandate, I think. And we're not ganging, but giving opinions. Right? If you neither show up or read logs, it's a bit difficult to keep up ;) Shall we do the discussion over again, now that magic wiz is around?" Stormfist nodnods. Vale says "I wouldn't know, actually. Most of the 'opinion' I saw was from Geolin." Vale says "Still I would like to warn again that it's up to the wizards, in the end, to decide how the game world works. But these wizards are pretty good at acknowleging change." Savah says "Well, log contained our all opinions. So either Geolin would have to sum up, or one would need read the lot. If it's the one I was in, at least. I loose track." Savah says "Basically: The chiefs have done much thinking and talking abotu magic for the last year or so. We have tried our best to communicate our wishes to the wizards. But anyhow.. better we meet up and find out what each other think now, than after all is implemented." Mender would think, idly, that the major area of complain/confusion/what-have-you is over the chart which, as it concerns numbers, is automatically delegated to the realm of the obscene, confusing, and semi-scientific. I would also think that Geolin's 'opinion', if it is to be put in quotes, is over the use of those numbers in that they -seem to imply- that any elf can have any magic, including wolf-bonding. A clarification of this would, I imagine, go far. Vale says "Well, any elf can have any magic. Wolfbonding I'd like to stay away from until the rest is solved." Savah says "I'm not quite sure I agree with that." Stormfist doesn't really either... Vale says "Why not? Keep in mind one of my goals is Simplicity. I can ignore Simplicity, but would like reasons to." Savah digs up her RPG, which she thinks is still the basic canon, in as far as any exits. "I do believe there were some limitations. There sure are on the mush. Any elf any magic is simple for wizards, not for chiefs." Vale says "Chiefs have the first 'no'. This is intentional." Savah says "I'd rather not have to quarrel with newbies as to why their sunfolk can't have water control when the rules say anybody can have anything, for one thing. Not to mention that it ruins variety if newbie holt chiefs can just hand out any magic. Um. Do we need a queue?" Mender raises a hand, and would like a queue personally. Vale says "Okay, can you handle a queue Mender?" Mender nods. Sure. Vale is chattin' over the topic of What Is Simple For Chiefs currently. Mender accepts queuepositions. Vale says "So as Chiefs, you don't believe 'because I said so' is a good reason? Wizards use it all the time, with magics. And you realize that if we say 'Wolfriders cannot have levitation' then Wolfriders can /never/ have levitation, ever." Savah waits for Mender to talk, first. Mender waits for Vale to finish, too. :) Vale is just talking. That's how I deal with things. Not to structure, but I will sometimes keep them from getting out of control. "Please, people, jump right in." Vale will say who he's responding to if there's too much at once. Savah says "There is a queue. So I suggst usual procedure.. say 'Done', so the next person know they're on :)" Vale says "Oh fine, fine. Done, darnit." Savah grins. Mender says "Okay, me and then Savah then. I agree with the idea that 'this is how it is because we say so'. I'm also Machiavellian - go figure. I also agree that any elf has the potential for any magic, be it levitation, plant shaping, stormsensing, firebombing, what have you. This potential does not actually lead to actuality, for whatever reason. This leads into -why- certain elves would have magics. Obviously, the majority of gliders get gliding because that's what they do - call it cultural or inherited, they glide. Wolfriders, on the other hand, generally don't need to glide to survive, so they don't. Being wolfish, they probably have an inherent fear of fire which would prevent them from firestarting too (I have a firestarting fetish solely because one of my characters applied for it and was never answered :). This, however, does not, and should not, prohibit wolfriders from the ability to 'maybe one day' be able to fly around - they are elves after all. The sole exception to this would be wolfbonding, which should be inherent only to those with wolfblood. And, of course, this doesn't account for, yet, how magics are to be disperesed, but that's another discussion. " -- I still like this as the best clarification of how things are done - Vale -- Vale says "Yup. Mender's pointing out what I am inarticulate about." Savah says "Well, I half agree with Mender, but... I tend to look at 'worst case' cases. In this case, letting anybody get anything makes me envision TwinkHolt of the levitating, blacksending wolfriders. It's been known to happen. I much prefer the RPGS take, saying for each magic in which tribe it's found. While there is always the chance of mutant, random magic, aka Zhantee or Venka, those should be rare and wiz-only, to my mind. Of course, I also much like the idea of random magic, assigned at +accept, with autmatic choice betweeh the few approved magics and an opportunity to app for the rare ones later. But I think I'm outgunned in that :)" Vale says "Oo, never thought about the potential of +accept in that way." Savah says "Anyhow.. Setting magics isn't the hardest bit, it's increasing them later that seems to be the main trouble. Current procedure for selecting magic works well enough for me. Done." Ember would like to point one small thing out. Mender says "Stormfist, then WolfFlame." Vale says "Okay, replying to Savah quickly..." Vale pushes the Hold button on Mender. (The Snooze button?) Mender snoozes. Vale says "Sorry, go ahead, Ember." Ember just wants to say, I think Zhantee's a particularly weird case, as is Ahdri. Their powers were both *extremely* latent and it was only (in Zhantee's case, extended) encounters with the Palace that woke up the ability. So yes. Definetely possible. But Darned Unlikely, partly because as a wizard, I don't want to see a Huge Influx of people claiming powers because of visiting the palace. That's all. Done. Sorry. :) Mender says "Okay, Vale (if still needed), then Stormfist, then WolfFlame." Vale says "Anyway, the only thing I wanted to say concerning Savah was that we have two levels of magic-checking. Chiefs and Wizards. Some terrible things have happened, but oh darn. They've been localized, and largely copeable. I don't, personally, see a need to change this unless the Chiefs are tired of having certain responsibilities. That's that. Oh, sorry. 'Done'." Stormfist says "I think it's a bs excuse RL, people use it because they can't think of a -reasonable- excuse. If you're going to say and elf can have any magic, word it -carefully- so that newbies don't get really upset when they don't get their blacksending they applied for because it said that all elves had hte possibility of every magic..." Vale says "How about this: Any Elf can have Any Magic, but it's a Horking Big 'Maybe'." Stormfist says "That'd be good." Vale says "'With Exception of Wolfbonding, Which We Are Not Currently Discussing.'" Savah says "And add something about: But these are the approved magics by background. Anyhow." WolfFlame is the newbie chief here so waits patiently =) Savah thinks somebody else was on queue, so restrains herself :) Vale puts Savah on the queue to explained 'approved magics', and waits for who's next. Mender says "WolfFlame - giver." WolfFlame grins, "The way I see magic is that it has developed as needed in the world to survive. Sorrow's End doesn't have water shapers for the simple reason water isn't there so the magic was in a sense wiped out of the genepool, as was plant shaping...Wolfriders needed plantshaping but not something like rockshaping so plantshaping was more available. As for having folks get random chances at magic at approval or such, this will make folks create more alts and lets the ones that don't get a magic idle that character out and try again, I've seen something similar to that elsewhere" WolfFlame hrms and notes this isn't even what she was going to bring up but thinks it will do Vale says "Go ahead and bring up what you want, then. Or you can get back on the Q." WolfFlame forgets what it was to be honest Savah says "There's a reason I said random magic on +accept. Not create, but +accept." Vale chuckles. "Done, then?" WolfFlame nods, "Done =) Savah says "+accept procedure is awkward enough already, and takes quite a bti of effort, so people are unlikely to make huge numbers of alts to try for random magics. Certainly, the chiefs would catch on quickly to anybody trying that stunt." Savah says "As for Vales question:" Savah says "Perhaps I should refrase it as 'known magics' for each bacground. I.E., if youre a wolfrider, you might possible have a chance at wolfbonding, plantshaping healing, sending, magic feeling. If you're a glider, you have a chance at leviation, hypnosis, rockshaping, sending, etc... Simply a list by background. Where mixed backgrounds would have a chance at either of their parents, more or less." Vale says "'Have a chance at?'" Savah says "Well, in my case, I'm thinking random chance. But also for chief-applied magics. Any not on the "known" list would need a wiz." Vale says "I think I know what you're hinting at, but it, too, would cause likely problems." Savah says "So, you *could* have a wolfrider with leviation, but only if both wiz and chief approved it. And not randomly." Savah says "Isn't that a bit as it works now? With limited magics for each tribe?" Vale says "You're suggesting 'Tribal Affinities for Magics', a list extra from the normal 'Vanilla Tribe Magics'." Savah says "Maybe a bit more complete I think it would make for greater variety within the tribes than the anything goes variety. ." Savah ndos at Vale. "But not Tribe. Background. Important difference." Mender says "Unless Vale has a reply to Savah, Stormfist is next." Vale says "Cat Elves would be likely to have, say, Animal Bonding and Plantshaping. Wolfriders, Plant Shaping and ... er, maybe something else. Etcetera, etcetera." Savah says "Right." Vale says "But if someone is given a magic that they don't want, they'd have to petition to un-have it. Just to note." Vale is done if Savah's done. Mender says "This assumes, of course, that random magics are assigned, right?" Savah says "Well, I can see it working with nonrandom. But I really like the random way. Given controls to avoid aforementioned mass-alt making." Vale says "Right. We stopped doing random magics for the reason stated earlier, that people just kept making alts. This was, naturally, before +accept." Savah nods, rememebring the birthplace filled with elf1, elf2, elf3... :) Vale hmms and it strikes a chord. I'll bring it up to the Wizards. Ember nods at Savah. :P Mender nods with the clarification, and tosses Stormfist onto the floor. Stormfist uufs and picks himself up and dusts off... Stormfist says "Well, just wanted to agree with Savah again, those rare magics as out Wolfie w/ gliding example would need a damn good reasoning behind their app for the magic. Also, just because an elf has a magic, doesn't mean they -have- to use it, and their character doesn't even need to know thay have it... As for the random-magic upon +acceptance, I think it's a good idea, but there is that chance for mega-elves..." Vale says "Worst-case, yes, there's a chance. That's a chance I'd be willing to take, and it wouldn't be likely." Stormfist says "I'm sure it could be done, and done well, if worked out carefully enough. " WolfFlame notes that the better rpers who do have magic tend to rarely use it =) Vale says "Anyone else on the topic of Handing Out of Magics?" Mender raises his own hand. Vale says "Anyone else? Just so I know what kind of mentality we've got on it right now." Savah thinks handing out is well covered for now. Vale says "Okay, Mender, then we move along." Mender says "The only problem I can forsee with randomly +accept'ed magics (providing safeguards and checks for alt-bombing are in place), is a holt with 5 healers and no one with anything else." Mender is done - merely food for thought. Savah says "Chance for each magic can easily be adjusted :)" Vale nods. Healers? .01% chance. Hee. Vale says "Ahhem. Okay." Stormfist grins. Mender wants to remain special, you know. ;) Stormfist is always special. ;P Vale says "We've a few other possible topics. Explaining Magic Growth. Is Magic Social or Genetic. Who Is This Vale Person Anyhow." Savah raises hand. Mender points to Savah. Shoot. Savah says "I'll jump right into the fire: Age of maturity." Vale says "That goes with Social/Genetic." Vale says "(For those keeping score at home.)" Savah says "I propose that the rate of magic increase is not only guided by age, but by background. A wolfrider should learn faster than a Glider, and level out sooner. Much sooner. Exact ages and rates to be battled out, but with chiefs having first say in what they consider the 'plateau' age for their tribe. To prevent, say, gliders born onmush from being limited to baby-magics for their enitrely playable age, tehre should always eb a minimum increase the first 20 years or so, though." Vale says "There is, to comment, no 'plateau' under the system." Savah says "Ie, very fast learning for 20 years, whatever background, and then slowing down. The curves I saw wheren't flat, but definitely very, very shallow after a certain age :)" Vale says "Well, yes, but that's not a plateau." Savah says "Ie, you'd get a change in increase twice: One rate from birth-20 (or so), one from 20-adult, whaetever that migh tbe, and then the adult level, which is close to flat. I call it a plateau :P :)" Vale says "This also raises the question: Does it matter what tribe you were raised in, or what your bloodline is, on how fast/well you learn?" Savah says "Can I speak first, and then you counter after? I'm loosing track of my thoughts." Vale says "Oops, sorry." Savah smiles, and takes a moment to try to figure out what she was thinking. Savah says "I'll catch onto the bloodline comment, which is close enough: Tribe is irrelevant. Only background matters, for magic. A glider being born in a wolfrider tribe for some reason would not learn at wolfrider speed." Savah says "A mixed background should for the purposes of increase, I feel, choose one or the other of their praents. For matters of simplicity, and because it seems to fit the comics. I.E., Suntop and Ember, who seem to develop at entirely different rates. Not an average one between their parents." Savah says "So: Chars get a random set of magics, according to background. The mixed (ie, those born onmush) get a choice between rates, and possibly even between preferred background magic sets. Which fits my idea of the comics. From that point on, all is automatic." Savah says "Oh, one more thing: A Power rating, or whatever you're calling it. A random numnber, totallly random, for all elves, that affect their magic strength. That should cover it. ." Mender says "Vale (if needed), then Stormfist." Vale is still working it all out. Go ahead, Stormfist. Stormfist says "Ok, again I agree mostly with Savah. The problem arises when the automatic increas begins. What kind of increase is it?" Vale says "Y'know ... an increase." Savah points to Vale, who knows the mechanics :) Logarithmic, right? Savah says "By +age, as I recall." Stormfist says "Is it a set number or a ranmdom? If it's a set number..then that will make all elves basically equal, those gifted elves out there will dissappear. Not every elf is at good at sending as every other elf. I mean when they get the increase, is it a set number the power increase by, or a random, or what?" Savah says "Nono. Not set. It's affected by what I called Power. Its mathematic." Vale says "There are, basically, two random elements. One is kind of a fudge factor that explains how well an elf is at magic (vaguely the POW stat). The second is the Amount Handed Out During RP." Savah says "Like a percentage increase, but logarithmic. Everybody knows the term?" Savah oops. Vales area. Mea culpa. Stormfist nods and likes the Power idea, was thinking somwthing like that myself... Vale isn't the one who cares about talking over each other, Savah. ;) Silverdew has arrived. Stormfist says "And it should be different for each background as well, and the starting level should be in sinc with the increase level. " Mender waves to Silverdew, and is the handy queue-elf for now. Silverdew nods, waves to all, and listens. Stormfist says "IE, a 500 year old newly created elf should have the magic that an elf would have had he/she aged and got the increases. Or close to it. Done fer now. ;P" Silverdew agrees. Vale says "Just to note to Stormfist. 'Well ... yeah!' Done." Vale smiles goofily and settles down. Mender is queue-less. Next topic? Vale says "Hm. This topic is still uninvestigated." Mender has a question, then. :) Vale says "Shoot." Mender says "What's going to be done with all of the current characters who have been around for awhile but haven't had magic increases? (I have a 22 year old who still has baby-magic, as an example)" Savah raises hand? Silverdew has a guess? Vale points to the Massive Magic Checking Code. Vale says "Don't turn it on unless you want a mess." Savah says "To answer question, that is." -- Savah's Answer is not valid under Vale's System, to keep things clear -- -- You will see that other people got a bit confused about this. -- Savah says "Or offer an answer, rather :) I have a chart that Blythe made when coding this, for converting existing chars. They'd all be adjusted to the proper level after new system, with some tweaking by tribe and former magics. I think the idea still is to convert old chars to fit the new system?" Stormfist raises hand to comment? Savah peers at Vale. WolfFlame wants to ask something too Mender wants pages for the queue, please - I get confused otherwise. Mender says "Okay, Vale, WolfFlame, Stormfist." Vale notes that Blythe's system was a lot less flexable. The current system doesn't care how many years has past, it will give proper increases. Which is why it will be hooked up to +age. Vale says "You can go 105 years without hitting +age. When you do ... poof, instant proper calculations in one go." Savah blinks a bit. "That's not an autmoatic system, it's a manual one :)" Vale says "Well, yes, but it doesn't need a 'chart'." Savah says "The chart was for adjustments for old chars. Just putting the levels on them wouldn't be right, since many peple would loose magic, that way." Vale says "Savah, this system calculates increases, not end magic value. Therefore it doesn't matter if the person has never had an increase before. But to get everyone up-to-date, I'll have the Mush shut down some afternoon and let the updating system -- uses the same formula -- do it." Savah ponders. What happens if I hit +age twice in a row, then? Vale says "Nothing, because your age is upgraded only once. Upgrade Age, then Upgrade Magic. No Upgrade in Age then no Upgrade in Magic." Savah ponders. Ah. I see, I think. Vale gets into the nitty-gritty of the proposed system. Anyone lost? Mender is scared - he seems to understand it fine. Silverdew isn't yet but is sure she will be :) Stormfist understands it too... Savah says "Increase sounds good. Handing out and adult ages, any comments yet, Vale?" Mender heals himself, and quits spamming. Vale says "Yes. I don't know if I agree that a Wolfrider's 20 is the same as a Glider's 1000." Silverdew says "Well, do they mature at different rates? Or is it just to be relative?" Mender points to WolfFlame, then Stormfist, next in queue. Silverdew shuts her mouth good and tight. Savah says "My thought was - fairly similar rate in childhood, difference is apparent in old age. Or 10000 year old gliders will have Fearsome magics." Mender thinks we got lost in it. :) Should I put you next Silverdew? Savah oops. Queue. Vale will be next in the queue, then, after Stormfist. Sorry. Wolfflame? WolfFlame says "What is going to the present players characters when/if magic is given out with +accept? will they just be out of luck getting a chance at magic? And a silly idea I had is what if we have a random magic kinda like a random recognition?" Vale says "That is silly, yes." Savah needs to depart. Trusts Mender to uphold her interests, and bamfs :) Stormfist waves. Savah says "Wiz app should always be in addition to random. Parting thought :)" Savah has left. Mender says "Was that all, WolfFlame?" WolfFlame has disconnected. If I didn't say goodbye or such, then I probably am having net problems and will be back just as soon as I can Mender guesses so. Stormfist? Stormfist says, "relog time...brb..." Vale blinks. "Sounds like a 'done'." ;) Mender says "Vale? :)" Vale says "Woof." Stormfist has disconnected. Vale says "Well, as mine was related to Savah's comments. I want people to think, though, what IS the difference between a 20 year old Wolfrider and a 1000 year-old Underworlder." WolfFlame has connected. Silverdew grins. 980 turns and most likely disposition. Stormfist has connected. Mender grins. Stormfist says, "What'd I miss??" Vale just asked people to consider what, in magic, is the difference between an 'adult' Wolfrider and an 'adult' Underworlder. Vale says "As we were waiting for the stragglers to return. WolfFlame was still on Q." Silverdew says "20 is adult for a WR?" Vale says "It was just a number I pulled out of my hat. It's generally considered adult, yeah." Vale says "Same way we consider 21 adult for people, though no one listens to 'em 'till they're 25." WolfFlame honestly doesn't think age is the total factor. WolfFlame says "Venka was able to block Winnowill's sends as a cub where as Redlance did not come into his magic until well into his hundreds...yet as he found his magic, he was quickly very strong in it" Vale says "Hmm." Vale says "Well, the general idea is an /overall/ increase, so people have a better chance at seeing their magics flourish without having to app for it all the time. Not a great chance, but a better one." Silverdew assumes that someone who wants someting like Venka's ability at cubhood would have to app for it, anyway. WolfFlame nods, "Like my magic IC...I've helped mend the Palace yet an still at untrained. -- This is because our magic system keeps getting debated over! -- -- Will it never cease! - Vale -- WolfFlame nodnods, "If someone wants to be a Suntop or a Venka they have to seriously apply for it and give reasons why Vale says "We actually had an application for Firestarting that was SO GOOD that half the wizards voted yes on it." Vale kind of wishes we gave it out, but hey. Mender scrambles off quickly to get some pizza - Stormfist has the queue after WolfFlame. Vale says "Okay. What are we talking about; I've lost track." WolfFlame says "Difference between Wolfrider and Underworlder adults I believe" Stormfist still has comments he wanted to make a while ago... Vale says "Well, that was just me. I'm in the Q after Stormfist." Stormfist says "Ok, when the switch over is made, what happens to the elves who have their powers reduced because of the switch? Is that where the tribal twinking comes in?" Vale says "No one will have their powers reduced. Only increased." Stormfist says "Ok, so it will just become the equivalnt then...ok." Vale says "We're assuming that the scores people have now are the scores they started the Mush with." -- Or born with. - Vale -- Stormfist says "Now, about the increase with age...agreeing with Wolfflame, age isn't the only factor. A 4000 year old elf who hasd never sent in his life won't be as good as a 100 year old elf who has sent every day of his. That's part of where the probem comes in with increase with age, it does happen, but usage of the power is also a big factor." Stormfist says "Ok, an idea for the app/random magic thing Wolfflame suggested, the sill one remember? What if the wiz's did a random for only those magic that are applied for? IE the pool all of the healing apps they get in say. A week or two and randomly choose one.." Vale says "That wouldn't be really fair to the chiefs, who are the people who normally OK magics for their tribe. Otherwise it's a tempting idea." Stormfist nods and was under the impression that wiz's had final say in magics... Vale says "Yes, but we generally side with the chiefs." Stormfist says "Ok, on to age what is adult?...(not a question, statement) " Vale says "Nonono, that's not the question. Well, not really. If you want to answer it, okay, but the real question is different." Stormfist says "I tend to look at the RPG a lot for what's canon, use many of the tables in it...oops, sorry...got lost then..what is yer q again?" Silverdew wonders if Vale is going to clarify what his question really is? Vale says "The question is: What's the difference, when you're talking about magic, between the ages of different tribes? (I.e., what's the diff between a Wolfrider 'adult' and an Underworlder 'adult'?)" Stormfist ahhs. "OK..." Vale says "The undertone question is: Is magic increase internal or external?" Stormfist says "Well, since UW's live longer, their adult age would be older than a WR's. Usuall a WR comes into adult age around their 20's-30's or so..." Vale says "Social or Genetic? Answer your favorite question." Stormfist says "So an UW's adult age would prolly be in the hundreds or so..." Vale says "Easily." Silverdew thinks it's around 800 if she remembers correctly, could be mistaken. Stormfist says "Ok, Socially a WR becomes an adult around 20 or so, but genetically it would be different...if ya can understand that..." WolfFlame hrms and thinks magic improves with use and practice more than age Ember thinks Dewshine was an adult at about 14 or 16. Anyway. WolfFlame nodnods, "Adult is when you find your place in the tribe I think" Vale says "Well, WolfFlame, that's part of the problem. ;)" Stormfist says "Well, yeah, anyway, what I meant was that physically, people become adults at around 18 or so, right?" Ember doesn't think it's "finding your place in the tribe"; I think that WRs mature very early, as do GoBacks, because they live short, harsh lives. Normally. Stormfist says "RLwise anyway..." Ember says "And it's very early that the 'elders' of those tribes start according the youngsters adult status." Stormfist says "But socially they're not accepted as adults till their 20's." Ember doesn't think that necessarily has a darned thing to do with magics. Stormfist thinks that when an elf becomes an adult is both social and genetic. Stormfist says "As far as using when they become adults for the magic increase though, if that's what it's for...you should use the genetic portion." Silverdew doesn't think that when an elf is considered 'adult' should be a factor. I see adultness as purely social. Stormfist says "Adult=mature I think is what I'm trying to get at..." Mender thinks, for the sake of a simple magic system, an 'adult' age needs to be defined, and I think it fits well at 20 for a Wolfrider. Mender, however, also loses track of Vale's question, and sits back merely to watch. Vale says "This is my question, actually, Mender." Mender says "The social/genetic age of an adult wolfrider? Okay. Stormfist, you have the queue again." Vale says "What's The Difference Between Adult X and Adult Y, For Purposes of Magic Increases. Or: Is Magic Increase Social or Genetic, Or Both, and How?" Stormfist says "Ok, as far as the genetic age of an elf, I really like to go by the chart in the RPG. 20 is about the age socially, but genetically it's later. As far as magics should be concerned..." Vale also side-bars that we're moving away from the RPG a little more each year; don't let it limit you. Stormfist nods, it doesn't...I like to use the charts, they make sense. "It all comes down to I think the emphasis on increase should be with usage. Increasing with age happens, yes, but using the power is more important. " Mender says "Vale, then me, then Silverdew." Picture has arrived. Vale says "This is how the RPG, and us for now, handles magic increases:" Vale says "You do something amazing, we give you 1-4 points. All you have to do is prove you did something amazing. The rest of the system will do some big assumptions on usage. That is, you're probably going to fit along a learning curve. That's what the Massive Magic Chart was all about." Mender peers at Vale. Done? Stormfist ok's. Vale says "Er, am I? I'm done if everyone else is done, else I'm answering questions and concerns." Mender has two things, actually. Mender says "One: will people still be able to apply for magic increases due to rp, as per the current system, and Two: Have the wizards considered a chief command to allow chiefs to know -who- in their tribe has special magics?" Vale says "One: Yes yes yes yes. More yes. Two: We're still hashing out the best way of doing it, but we're working on something now." Mender okays, and is happy. Thankyou. Mender is done. Vale says "This System/Chart/Thing is not the only way anyone's ever going to get a magic increase. It will just be one automated system that sits in the background and gets people, largely, out of the years 0-20... well, right noe 20." Silverdew says "Ok, the whole age increase thing is, or in my opinion, should be merely a block basis for the average elf of a certain type (eg. Wolfrider or Glider). I think the average age-based increase is genetically dependant, not socially. On that regard, what needs to be figured out is the age when each elf type becomes physically mature. It is my understanding that the gestation period for an elf of any type is 2 turns, that being, do all elf types develop at the same rate? Or is that only during embryotic stages? Does the wolf blood effect the physical rate of development? " WolfFlame has disconnected. Silverdew says "That is all average age-based. Of course usage is a heavy factor, but that is a difficult area since it is more dependant on the individual elf. For instance, if an elf visited the Palace for a few turns, would their magic increase rate raise? " Vale says "Okay, yes. Now, does anyone have answers to these questions?" Vale suggests leaving the Palace out of it for now. Silverdew nods. Mender honestly doesn't want to tackle the question of "adult" ages, other than agreeing that a Wolfrider's should be 20, and that elves with different blood would age differently as a result. Aside from that, I'd like to save myself the headache and remain blissfully ignorant. Stormfist thinks all elves arew physically mature around 20 or so, when they become an 'adult' in their respective tribe is purely social. Vale says "Unfortunately, Mender, this is more or less the crux of this magic system." Mender agrees. However, aside from wolfriders, I can't and won't try to comment on other bloodlines - that's for those chiefs to do. Silverdew sees where Stormy is coming from, and thinks it makes enough sense. After 20, increase could slow down, so the average elf would be more or less magically mature when physically mature. After that, it would be tribe/usage dependant. Vale says "How would it be tribe dependant?" Stormfist says "The sun-folk don't send to often, where as the wolfriders do, so naturally sending would increase faster in WR's. Along those lines..." Vale says "What if a Sorrow's End elf grows up with Wolfriders?" Silverdew says "And, the average UW sends much much more than speaking. Then they'd prolly be good at sending. It's mostly social." Ember thinks if a SE elf grew up with WRs, the SE elf would be able to send. Vale says "So you vote magic is a social creature." Ember thinks, conversely, that if a WR grew up in a totally SE society, he wouldn't be much of a sender. Silverdew says "That Sunfolk would be affiliated with that WR tribe, and therefore fit the tribal standards." Stormfist says "For the most part, yes, as far as increasing ability." Silverdew says "Socially as far as usage." Vale says "So every tribe, not every bloodline, should have their magic improvement list." Silverdew says "Except for something like a WR growing up in Blue Mountain, they shouldn't naturally increase in levitation." Ember rights at SD. Stormfist agrees. Silverdew says "I think going by tribe makes more sense, the only hard part for that would be the solitaries and the exceptions." Stormfist hrms and nods. Silverdew looks around and taps the microphone. "This is something we have to decide together, input?" Stormfist agrees totally. Picture is a bit idle, sorry folks.. Looks good.. Ember wakes, yes, going by tribe is acceptable to me. Mender is agreeable to that too, yes. Stormfist says "As for solitaries, thewy learn from the tribes they visit and how long they stay there..." Ember says "It has to be based somewhat on bloodlines, though." Stormfist says "Well, yeah..." Ember, for example, had a WR solitary who was pure WR, spent very little time with tribes. Had Magic Feeling, Sending and WB. Which are all nice generic WR magics. Mender has something that may be a little spammy to say. Stormfist says "Say it Mender... ;)" Silverdew says "Ok, so how do we incorporate both? Especially for say, something like Willowholt that is a smorgesbord of bloodlines? Go for it Mender." Mender says "Magics are based on bloodlines, yes - a wolfrider is more apt to have Plantshaping than gliding. A wolfrider will also get Sending, Magic Feeling, and WolfBonding. However, we've also discussed the idea of magic being tribal, or social, and must be learned and developed as such. A solitary elf, at least in the "traditional" sense, is solitary - alone, or with few. As a result, they wouldn't have the chance to have socially developed their magics (think of feral children not knowing a language) and, although they may still have them, these magics would be at a lower level than "normal" for a "normal" tribed-elf. So, wouldn't the "improvement curve" for solitary elves be lowered just a little? This, of course, ignores multi-blooded critters." Vale thinks this all getting mucho convoluted. Ember nods. Ember says "How about we take it from this point:" Ember says "That we develop the magics along the lines of tribal differences. We can fight out multibloods afterwards?" Silverdew still thinks tribe is more managable than bloodline. :) And with that, sits back and enjoys the show quietly. Vale says "Multibloods are a genetic condition, not a social one." --- SOMETHING GOES TERRIBLY, TERRIBLY WRONG --- ** I believe it starts somewhere vaguely here. I don't know what happened, but it did. I can only speak for myself and in that I can only say something irked me, and I wasn't afraid to say so. The way I said it probably fueled larger fires. You will just have to read and see. ** --- Stormfist says "The only thing the blood should give you is the magic itself. the level should come from social usage." Silverdew agrees with Stormy. Vale thinks social is just as hard to do as genetic. Assume a Wolfrider in Blue Mountain ... realistically, they shouldn't be able to learn a damned thing but sending... Picture nods with Stormfist. Silverdew says "Sounds about right, Vale." Ember nods at Vale. Stormfist agrees. Silverdew says "They have it, but it doesn't increase. Same deal as Sending in your average Sunfolk." Vale says "So how would 'magic increase depend on tribe, not bloodline' work?" Stormfist says "But they still -have- the other powers that WR's get...just not at high levels..." Vale says "'Wolfriders increase so much when they're at Sorrow's End, but less when they're here, more when they're there.' Magic would then become dependant on age, background and tribe." Ember says "God, that's complicated." Vale says "And let's take Traders. Or elves that are living in another tribe for a while..." Silverdew says "If they go under the roster, they increase at the rate of the rest under the tribe roster." Vale says "'If.'" Ember says "Argh." Vale says "There's a lot of people who aren't part of a tribe who are living with them." Ember thinks that's awfully hard. Silverdew says "Then if they live with them, they should go under the roster?" Vale says "I'm not against this idea, I just want to point out the larger holes." Stormfist says "If you live with a tribe, you should increase with them as long as you're there." Vale says "But how would the System know you're living with the tribe, Stormfist?" Stormfist says "Maybe a 'guest-roster' of sorts..." Silverdew says "Perhaps if we add a Guest section under the roster, just as you see Reserved or MIA?" Vale says "We've just doubled the complexity of all chiefs." Mender says "There will be holes with absolutely any system implemented - someone will find a reason to complain about it. There is no way that any code could take into considerations all possible factors." Stormfist says "Looks that way, yep."" Vale will strongly withstand a complex system. Silverdew says "The magic system is going to be complex, regardless. Though making it tribal could take a little off the wizzes shoulders and on to the chief's shoulders. I for one, am ready to deal with that." Ember, from a wizard point of view, would rather keep it simpler if possible, too. Ember says "Actually, hell. From a chief's POV, too." Vale says "Silverdew, think about what you're saying. 'I don't care how complex it works.'" Mender wouldn't mind a little extra work, either - there's no reason for the wizards to burden it all. Stormfist wouldn't mind a bit more work. Vale says "I do. There's very little complex about it at the moment. I consider a system complex if it requires more than one person to do anything with it to keep it working smoothly." Silverdew says "That's not what I am saying. I'm going with what Mender says. I haven't actually done much as a 2nd in either of the tribes I'm chiefbitting, but this doesn't apply to trolls." Vale says "And yet, some people have been waiting weeks and others months to have a chief talk to them about signing on to the tribe." Mender says "And, additionally, chiefs and players wait months to hear back from wizards concerning a variety of applications." Vale says "Yes. And?" Silverdew says "I haven't encountered that yet. And bingo Mender." Vale says "We're a council. Chiefs are singular, and don't have to wait for everyone to pipe in." Stormfist has only seen one app in the time he's been C-2nd in both the tribes he seconds, and it was responded to in a day. Vale says "Don't have to keep track of what people have said on this or that." Mender says "Regardless, if you're going to complain about waiting periods, we have a shorter one." Ember, from wiz POV, points out that more complicated magics make it that much more likely that we're going to take even longer. And I don't think Vale was complaining, per se, as pointing it out. Vale says "I'm not complaining about waiting periods. I'm poiting out that /other chiefs/ may feel very differently about this idea of 'extra work'." Ember says "We know perfectly well we've got an awful response time. :) Most chiefs prolly know they do too. :)" Stormfist says "So mail the chiefs and get they're responses to the idea." Vale says "I've done that. I've gotten SHIT for responses." Vale says "Sorry." Stormfist says "or bring it up on sunday." Ember laughs, and was bout to say that, slightly more delicately. Vale says "I'm not here Sunday." Stormfist sorries and patpats. Vale says "I'm not attacking the chiefs, I'm defending simplicity." Silverdew says "Right, we shouldn't decide anything without everyone's input, but as long as some of us are here to discuss, then let's discuss, mail the others, there you go. We're brainstorming, not making up our minds and forgetting the others." Stormfist says "Well, those of us who will be here on sunday will bring it up and get responses..." Vale says "So let's stop the offensive/defensive crap, okay?" Silverdew holds out her arms, group hug? Stormfist group hugs. Silverdew will try and be there Sunday (same for Gleamstone) Vale says "As I'm the one who has to code this monster, and the Wizards are the ones who have to agree to all this, please, please, please refrain from saying what's, for example, complex." Vale says "Saying 'I don't mind' is one thing. Saying 'It's better' is another. Better for whom? Complex how? Simple how?" Stormfist patpats poor vale. Silverdew offers her hug to Vale. Vale says "Look, this isn't an 'I'm Okay, You're Okay' meeting. This is me, a wizard, TRYING to get a handle as to what other people want, why they want it, and coming up with an answer that will make the most people happy." Vale says "You want complex? I'm doing all the fricking work." Silverdew says "Ok, Vale, since you are coding it, do any of our ideas sound doable to you?" Vale says "They almost all sound doable." Silverdew wonders what the next step should be, should we just outline all of the ideas and present them around until we can *all* give input? Mender finds the hazards of logging on during the day as his professor finally decides to leave. Vale says "That's why I've been online since noon, Silver." Silverdew nods to Vale. "Is there anymore we can do today, without more than half the chiefs here?" Vale says "Keep talking." Mender says "About?" Vale says "What we have been talking about. In essence, it's a question of how you think magic works, and why. Confined to learning of." Mender ohyeahs. That thing. WinterSong has arrived. Silverdew says "Like Stormfist said, I think bloodline determines the magic, social situation i.e. tribe, determines increase."" Vale says "All /I/ wanted to know is how each of you thought your tribe should be increased. But people have blown it out of proportion, as is the case when they see how a system works and disagree." Silverdew waves to Wintersong! WinterSong snugs randomly! Vale says "Please keep Cute down at the moment. I'm getting a headache." Mender snickers quietly. "As are we all, Vale." Vale doesn't mean to outlaw Cute, but he's trying to concentrate on one thing at a time. Vale says "Well, if you're getting a headache you can go for a while. Don't expect anything to get resolved here." Mender says "And leave out some chances for perfectly cute remarks? Nah. Not yet." Silverdew is flexible. "So Vale, is the basic organization of the increase system decided? And all that's left between chiefs and 2nds for the individual tribes? Vale says "I thought it was, until the people I head from on the tm-chiefs list all went gaga. Well, not 'gaga'. More like ... well, there was general feeling of 'What?!' so..." Silverdew hasn't heard anything on the tm-chiefs mailing list off mush mail. I subscribed a while back, though..Off-topic, sorry. Vale says "Geolin said that under this system he would discourage his tribe members from paying attention to it. This is not acceptable. So I'm here. IT's an email list, Silver." Silverdew says "I know :/, I'll resubscribe I guess." Vale says "I'll be honest. I don't want to be here. I don't think there's a reason to be here. I don't understand why this is necessary. But I want all the Chiefs to be comfortable that they're being listened to, and I want to hear from each Chief, so I'm here." Silverdew says "Under which system Vale, going increase by tribe? Basic magic by bloodline?" Silverdew pats Vale. Stormfist acks and hasta go. BBLT. Stormfist has disconnected. Mender says "We don't want to be here either, Vale. We all know, frankly, at the end of the day, the system is going to be designed by wizards for wizards to make their lives simpler under the pretense of being good to others. Why the lot of us have wasted our time as well actually thinking we could try to make this place a little better for all is beyond me - call it a great way to waste a day in the office, if you will. Good day, all, and apologies for the waste of time." Vale says "By bloodline. 20 Is Genetically Grown. And the numbers involved." Mender goes home. Mender has left. Og has arrived. Vale says "Well gosh, Mender, you're /right/. It /will/ be designed by Wizards. It has to be. I'm not sitting here picking and choosing for my own good, though. I'm sitting here listening because I want to know what people think." WinterSong doesn't see how it could be done if NOT designed by Wizards... Vale says "Tell Mender that." Ember whistles. Ember says "Hello, folks." Ember eyes after Mender, and shakes her head. Vale says "It would be so easy for me to @tel away and log out, too. To say, 'Whups, gosh, well you'll all just have to cope with what I think because I'm the wizard.' There is a certain level at which people /on both sides/ must allow for each other." Vale says "And if you can't allow, then you have no right claiming the position you have. Personally, I like the explaination given why Social would be a good way of doing it. And of using +accept to do some more neat things with the system." WinterSong maybe missed that explanation? Vale says "I like, actually, seeing the difference between Genetic and Social influences defined. But if, on the whole, the Wizards don't agree, then we will not agree for a reason and people will have to accept that as being the Way the World Works. This is never (er, rarely) done rashly, and is never done without an explaination." Vale says "Have I seen, maybe, a different role for the wizards? Are the wizards supposed to do everything people tell them? Are we doing a bad job at communicating? Is there something wrong with, 'Thanks for your input, but we don't currently agree'?" Vale says "Can somebody, please, explain what caused Mender to storm out?" Silverdew can't, as she has no idea. Og didn't even see mender leave WinterSong got here just in time for the exit. Silverdew thinks the only one who can explain it is Mender. Vale says "If Mender can explain it without ranting, I'll gladly listen." Picture is partly idle, but agrees with Silverdew. I din't see a reason for it.. Ember can explain it. Vale says "Shoot, Ember." Ember says "Mender feels, apparently, that the chiefs' input is irrelevant and that he was wasting his time. Where that belief came from, I'm not sure. I think, frankly, that the fact we're *having* this meeting should negate the idea that chiefly input is irrelevant." Ember says "He had a snit." Ember, thoughtfully, says, "WHich, you must agree, is in character." Then she smacks herself. Vale says "Well, yeah, I heard what he said but didn't understand why. Maybe he feels he should be a wizard. Ooo, scarry thought, people wanting to be a wizard." -- The above was a joke! No one wants to be a wizard. ;) - Vale -- Ember eh. Let's not snide too much. I don't know what precipitated his tantrum, but I'm not sure we can do anything about it, so. Vale appologizes for that. Some people would call it inappropriate (which is fine) but I felt it necessary to respond, even if the person I was responding to isn't here. --- MAGIC MEET CONTINUES --- Vale says "So. Magic." Vale says "WinterSong had a question that I've forgotten. What was it, Winter?" WinterSong just asked about the explanation you mentioned about Social rather than Genetic. Silverdew is going to summarize her input. "I cannot code, so my input is based on opinion and only opinion. I think that a good age for all elves to be genetically and on average, magically mature is 20. I think basics magics possessed is dependant on bloodline, and rate of increase is dependant on social situation." Vale says "This is largely the biggest debate/complaint/whatnot about the system I've got here." Vale says "That is: It assumes that every elf is physically - and therefore magically - mature at 20. It also assumes that the 'natural' (read: average) increases to an elf's magics is based on their heredity. Both assumptions are genetic." WinterSong uhohs and has to fly now! Sorry. WinterSong has disconnected. Vale says "The latest general statement here is that: Magics are genetically gained, but the general learning rate is social. That is, it's based on tribe, not bloodline." Og nods, "Perfect book ex is Rayek, Didn't need them in SE, but when trained by Ekuar the increased Vale says "That's slightly different." Silverdew says "What about Leetah and sending." Vale says "The second way to increase your stats is 'Doing Something Impressive'. Or be trained, so on. You have a chance of gaining 1-4 points, randomly. So there's the Automatic Raise, which is, after a certain age, pretty small. And there's the RP Raise which, after a certain power level, is pretty rare." Ember says "Leetah was taught to send. Not need, but desire to learn." Vale says "The Palace would probably fall under Category 2, depending." Silverdew agrees. Vale says "If it's made into a tribe, it'd probably become Category 1." Silverdew needs clarification. "If the Palace is made into a tribe?" Vale says "There's a bunch of people living at the Palace right now. And it's a specialized case, anyhow." Silverdew nods. Vale blinks. "Does anyone remember where we're at?" Silverdew got lost a long time ago. Silverdew wonders if anything at all on this so far is agreed on by all? Picture hasn't seen anything she disagrees with, so I guess that makes it agreeing. :) Sorry I'm not participating much. Vale says "Well, Picture, have you asked your Prerequisite Requested One Question? I haven't been paying much attention to who's asked what?" Picture mmms, nope. Ember stopped logging ages ago. Too much spam and I got disconnected.. :P Vale grins. "Think of a question." Picture bleahs.. question.. erm.. Vale says "No pressure. Whenever it comes to you." Picture nods. I can't think of any ATM. Picture could start logging, if its needed. Vale says "If you want, sure." Silverdew says "Ok, should we mail the other wizzes and chiefs? Has anything been decided today?" Vale says "Nothing is being decided today. I want input from as many people as I can. If things are agreed upon, sure, that's good, but it's not the overriding goal." Picture nods. Silverdew ok's. Vale, do you have my input? Vale says "If you've said something, I've seen it. I'm bad with names, in general." Silverdew summarized it a while back. Shall I resummarize before I leave? I feel that you have listened. Vale says "S'up to you. Go for it." Silverdew says "Ok, 1) I agree that 20 is a good age for all elves to be genetically and magically mature. 2) I think that magic is based on bloodline 3) I think that magic increase is based on social situation, i.e. tribe." Vale nods. Okay. "I'm not holding anyone here by a chain, btw. Since I'll be here for at least another three, four hours. Well, except Picture." Silverdew is gonna go IC now, my input is given. Silverdew has left. Vale says "Ember, do you remember the other general topic I said was possible to be brought up?" Picture nods. Um, well, I don't really have any questions because if I did have anything to ask, it was most likely cleared up. Ember has no idea, Vale. Vale says "Well, okay, let me ask one. If we do go 'Magic increase is social', what would you suggest be done with Traders?" Picture's opinion on the Traders is she would like to see how magical -they're- tribe is. If their tribe generally sends often and has 'magical' members, I would imagine that would influence other elves' magic. Vale says "So you think the Traders influence other tribes?" Picture says "Um, maybe in some ways. I think it would have to do with how the characters interact with each other, whether or not they send in the other tribe's presence, try to assist them in expanding their abilities, etc." Vale says "And how would you code that into a system?" Vale isn't asking for the code, just if you have any suggestions as to how that would be done. Picture ums, "I'm not sure you could. For the Traders themselves, there could be some sort of code that the Trader's chief would control in updating magic scores, but I'm not sure about other tribes." Ember puts in for the queue, when Picture's done. Picture is done. Ember thinks the Traders, being a large, traveling group, are a bigtime exception to the normal idea of holts in EQ. I think that if Individual Elf A meets up with the traders and meets Elf B, and Elf A wants to study with Elf B and learn Hypnosis, or Nose-Touching, or whatever, then Elf A should study with Elf B while Elf B is in the holt, and if they really want to get it down, go *with* Elf B. I think uprooting an individual char is far, far easier than trying to determine the effect of a traveling tribe on stationary ones. Did that make sense? Vale, on the phone, lags. Og has disconnected. Vale says "Hokay, back." Picture nods. Vale says "Still, these are questions for the individual chiefs when we get a working system together." Vale says "Which is what my original Massive Magic Chart was generally about. Picture nods. Vale says "Does no one actually have any questions right now?" Picture shakes her head, not from me. Ember has to bamf. Work calls. Ember has disconnected. Vale says "Well, Pciture, since you're it right now I'm closing the meeting to take something of a break." Picture nods. Picture is gonna go back IC (Sorta) and idle a bit. Vale says "Thanks." Picture nods. Of course. BBIAB. Picture has left. ----- A PAUSE IN THE LOG ----- I ate. Face it, I get hungry sometimes, too, so I turned off the log, turned on the TV and got something to eat. It was a gorgeous day out so I followed that up with a bit of wandering around aimlessly not thinking about much but the white noise of a thousand background thoughts and ideas. Then I got back to work. ----- THE LOG STARTS AGAIN ----- Mud says "Points. Speak away, your words shall be engraved on stone in Vale's log." Vale says "Vale almost lost the last log he edited, thanks to being braindead." Vale says "Okay, there are basically two points that need resolving before anything else can be done. Say Lah Vee." Geolin plugs in his own log with a sigh. "Yeah. Magic is genetic and is learned socially. Or so it works here, which I think is part of what you shouldn't fight against: how it works here. Richard's a great guy, he and Wendy wrote a great world, but we're roleplaying something here and that's a different process that involves people interacting." Vale says "That's never been the intent before, Geolin. I don't know how people thought that, but hey, who'm I to judge." Geolin will shaddup if you're about to say something, Vale, but I have no idea who has the floor, the say, or anything else, so carry on. Vale is willing to just talk until it's necessary to untangle words. Geolin snarks. "The idea that the MUSH isn't here for people to RP in is new to me, yeah. So keep talking." Vale says "Um, down to a quiet biting wit? If you have something to say, fine, but don't be pompus about it. It's hard to talk when you're being hit with a hammer against the brainpan, as it were." Cutter will read the log. Cutter has left. Mud says, mildly, "Behave. The subject's the magic system, to remind you. And have an Oreo." Vale says "Sorry, Mud. Ahhem. Anyhow." Geolin chews. "I wasn't aware," he states, through the cookie, "that the magmfic syshtem couldn't refleck some of what's done here. I am really serious here: is it shtupposed to reflect the god's truth as set down by Warp, or as it more or less gets implemented here?" Geolin is fine either way, but you gotta tell him. He really, really thought we were trying to automate the way things are percieved, not change the way things are percieved. Vale says "A little of both. We Wizards certainly haven't confined ourselves to whatever Richard and Wendi say. After all, they've given hints, but not a whole world. And I think there's some miscommuncation here; what's percieved isn't really what's been going on all along. But I'm not against it, depending on the differences." -- The short version of the statement above: Perceptions can be wrong. -- Mud says "We run into the problem of 'What were the Pinis thinking' on many issues. The Preservers. The shards. Etc. Sometimes we don't know. Sometimes we ask. Sometimes we try to set up something that's viewable as workable, or more workable than nothing." Natil poofs in, darkly. Geolin ok. So we want to get closer to what's percieved and what's handed down from Warp. This is cool. Vale says "For instance: Wizards have always assumed magic to be purely Genetic. Chiefs have had a different view. This could be because you're chiefs and we're wizards, or because the system has never been scrutinized before, or because we've just never told anyone." Geolin thinks the latter is part of it, but yes. We do see it as not purely genetic. I really ought to write to Richard about that, because I think there's been evidence here and there of one magic-user teaching another, which isn't necessarily genetic...oo Mender, duh. And the Palace isn't genetic. So. Is this a point that the wizards argue with (don't agree with)? Or just one that's hard to handle? Vale says "But no, as Mud pointed out, we don't blindly follow El Pinis. One cannot walk through this world on only genetic behaviorism. Much is environmental. That's why there's the 'Impressive RP' rule: Gain points for RP. The Palace Idea: Palace enhances magic, but does it actually increase it we don't know yet. The Teaching Rule, something like the Impressive RP Rule." Geolin nod. Vale says "It's almost always been that one cannot learn a magic that has not always been there. But I also imply an elf has, potentially, every magic. That's something for the Wizards to wrestle over, but any suggestions are always helpful. Eg., Mirya doesn't like the Any Magic for Any Elf idea, I do. And a lot of 'rules' are generally accepted ideas. And there are problems for Magic Learned Socially. For example: The Traders. Solitary Elves. Elves visiting another tribe. Wolfriders in Blue Mountain." Vale says "Most of those brought up by other Chiefly types." Geolin can't parse the problems here? Vale says "If magics are learned by social immersion, what about the Traders, who are more or less immersed with everyone, and spread it around? Or Solitary elves, who aren't immersed in anything. Or someone from, say, the Catelves living with the Underworlders a while, but not moving there." Mud says "One of the difference between the tribes of elves is the difference in magics among them--levitators, stormseers/watershapers, etc. There's a great deal of social blending on this Mush, and differences are already blending, in the crossed-elves, with social learning, they'd be even more blended." Geolin doesn't think the former actively teach much, and the latter still can learn some by effort -- hey, I moved that plant while I was high on berries. Wonder if I can do it now when my head doesn't hurt. Geolin former = Traders, latter = Solitaries Vale thinks the wizards have a problem with the last situation he mentioned. Natil is summoned homeward by spouse. Back when I get back, y'all. Natil kerbamfs. Geolin Catelves w/ UWs? Vale says "Currently, Glider with UWs." Vale says "The person, under a Social Increase system, should be in the Underworlder tribe, else the system will increase them thinking they were still in Blue Mountain." Mud says "Ah. So any automatic implementation of social learning would be quite difficult. But this could be handled by manual application (yes, yes, I know the queue is slow)." Vale thinks the holes in the Social system are considerably minor, to be honest. Geolin thinks on this. "Global zones, a'la Winnowill's idea, appeal to me and provide potential solutions to this problem. Just an aside." Geolin was not aware that we were not up to date on MUSH server. Geolin looks. Yeah. We're not. Vale says "I don't know if we can get Whisp to upgrade the Mush for Zones. Just to comment." Mud says "Are you saying it'd be easy enough, technically-wise, to implement, Vale?" Vale says "Yeah. I'd just use the chart for a different purpose, add one for each tribe, and change the way initial magics are determined." Geolin depends on whose upgrades you want. Anyway...I know there's people willing to upgrade this monster, but if Whip is not one of them, we're out since he's siteadmin...am I correct? Vale says "We might be able to convince him, Geo, but we'd need a decent reason. Can't say I blame him." Geolin shrugs. I've changed server on a MUSH a few times. I didn't mind. Then, I don't do my own hacking; I have friendly people who are willing to help hack. It's never taken more than a few hours. I don't think it's sensible to do like this, especially if we could benefit greatly from zones, which if we went to that sort of magic system or otherwise increased tribal-identity powers, we would. But that's not here nor there. Vale says "I will definately note that and bring that up to him. He might demand proof that it'd help. That's later, if we get there, though." Geolin would so love to be able to do an easy coding of his own globals for his tribes. Woo! Aherm. :) Vale says "Anyway. Magic. You agree that genetic learned / social increased is the way to go, then?" Geolin thinks you mean genetic acquired, age increased, rate/kind of increase affected by social? Vale says "Er ... sure." Vale says "Anyway. Adulthood..." Geolin genetic acquired: By being what you are, you have Power X. Age/Social increase: as you age, since you are in Society A, you get N increase per time Z. Vale says "Let's quickly look at two perfectly valid examples..." Vale says "In some african tribes, you're adult at 13. In American society, it's 21." Vale says "But no matter what area of the world you live in, puberty hits in the same age range, and is generally done with in the same age range. That's same for everyone, around the world, not the same age range for both ideas." Geolin yup. Vale says "Now. What's an Adult?" Geolin heh heh heh. One of two things, or, by my personal feeling, a combination of both. 1.) Physical maturity. 2.) Mental/social maturity. Winnowill has arrived. Vale says "Hi, Winnowill. Geolin is currently describing to us what makes an adult." Winnowill would think an average ability in everyday magics, the ability to hold your own against equals. Vale says "Winnowill votes: It's Social." Winnowill chuckles faintly Winnowill is speaking with a Glider mindset... a youth that cannot glide a small rock is more likely considered a child yet Geolin er, what makes an elf an adult in terms of magical skill, or what skill of magic belongs to an adult? Vale says "That's a question of what makes a Glider socially adult. I'm asking about magic." Geolin ok, what skill of magic belongs to an adult. Vale says "Here, let me phrase it differently..." Vale says "I'll take two send-heavy tribes. Wolfriders and Underworlders. Say a Wolfrider 'adult', at 20, has an average sending of 60. Say an Underworlder 'adult', at 150, has an average sending of 70. Why do Underworlders learn sending slower than Wolfriders?" Geolin can answer that...socially. Winnowill might attribute that to necessity. Around humans, WRs have to be silent. Vale says "Underworlders have to talk across 3-d Cave Space. Anyhow, shoot, Geo." Shayilbey does not expect a childe to send with the skill of an adult. She will not send to them with the complexity or care that she would to an adult...giving said childe less to learn from. Vale says "Good answer." Winnowill expects everything form all he Gliders. Geolin shakes off his alter ego with a shudder. "Thanks. Does it make sense?" WaveDancer would expect everyone to send at a reasonable level, as it is .extremely. difficult to speak under water. "Makes good sense, Shay." Vale says "It does. We're saying that a Magic Adult is one that we expect a certain skill of from, at a socially determined age." Vale says "I've got a physical factor for that, as well." Winnowill mms? Geolin yeah? Vale says "As your body grows, so does your mind. You will find yourself stronger and capable of grasping complex ideas as you grow. As your mind finishes growing (before your body, actually), you've ... ah ... okay, Vale, you've what ..." Geolin laughs. Winnowill hides her smile behind her hand. Vale says "Still, children learn things we don't realize they're learning, almost no matter how we treat them. Obviously if you treat them well, they're going to be better off about it, if not they'll be learning to, for instance, repress themselves. How to go around the system. How to best be obedient. But those are all highly complex systems, but not consciously refined. After a certain age, that tapers off." Mud offers that minds don't finish growing, and college isn't given to pre-teens. Vale says "'Course not, Mud. I didn't say, 'A child of 5 can have sending of 100'. I'm saying that children hyperlearn." Mud represses himself and has an Oreo. Geolin just grins. "The genius connection is supposedly half not losing the speed of learning and half having access to more than 10% of your brain, but I don't think that's relevant. I just wanted to say it." Geolin is trying to get the hang of what you said, Vale. You're talking about children and their learning processes. This doesn't seem...inobvious? Mud says "Would it help to use speech as an analogy? In some cultures, children are strongly discouraged from speaking (making speech therapy difficult), in others, I'm tempted to strangle the parents, but. Yet in both culutres, they both stay in roughly the same stages." Vale says "I'm saying children's /genetic/ learning processes." Winnowill says "Then would purebloods have an advantage, or disadvantage?" Mud says "Speech is acquired through a genetic learning processes, but I'll drop it if it's a bad analogy." Vale says "Does a half-black have more or less an advantage in learning, Winnowill?" Winnowill says "No, Vale, but there is significant genetical difference between a wolf-blood and a pure-blood" Geolin ...uh, I think she means non-wolfrider. Which is more like asking if a half-ape...if you'll excuse the analogy...whatever. Vale says "Let's leave them alone until we know how the rest of the world works." Winnowill would think that WolfRiders have the -animal- edge, while Gliders and UnderWorlders would have the complex thought edge. Vale says "Point I'm making is that there's a learning spurt, no matter what your social stigmas are." Winnowill would think then, that it would have shifted through the years as bloodlines and cultures changed. Those that lived longer, grew with a slower grace... while animalbloods would reach peak early and longer. Vale says "Winnowill, please leave the Wolfriders out of it for now. We can get back to them, but for now I want to know how the world works. In a general sense." Geolin wellllll....it rotates around an axis...and presumably it's mostly rock, either solid or liquid... Vale says "You sure it doesn't go through space on the back of a giant turtle?" Geolin oh! Duh! I forgot. Winnowill chuckles. The turtle moves. Vale says "So what's the problem, oh masters of tangents?" Ember has connected. Geolin ...has no idea. I can't even remember what you were talking about, Vale. Geolin is into zones. Winnowill chuckles. Vale says "I was talking about the point that supposedly 'keeps getting shot down'. What's the problem?" Mud says "When is an adult an adult, mageekwise." Geolin oys. You're gonna say it's still 20. Vale says "I am? Why, I'm so VERY glad you told me. I didn't know what I was supposed to think." Geolin whoah.... Winnowill still feels that it should be socio-cultural. Those that live longer are no doubt inclined to mark adulthood at a later age Mud says "Now, now, Geolin, we need some system to work on, and Vale's not dogmatic, but he needs reasons to use something different." Geolin ah HA. You mean the speed of learning slows at 20. This is not the same as stops. However...hang on. I need to pry something out of my head. Vale says "I never said anyone stops learning." Ember offers an opinion? Geolin says "I think that _slows down_ is a different speed for different groups. Underworlders learn fast until 20, sure. And then slower. But maybe they don't learn AS fast pre-20 as a Sea Elf, and maybe they learn LESS slowly AFTER 20 than a Sea Elf. Does this make any sense?"" Geolin is done. Vale says "You're saying there are two learning curves. One that's genetic, one that's cultural." Ember would tentatively second that, Vale. Geolin is saying just exactly that. Vale says "Savah brought this up earlier. Have you chiefs been ... talking?" Geolin laughs! Winnowill seems to remember a sequence in ...eh... Book... 8, when Tyleet and Venka were growing up, that a caption read that (and excuse my dragging WRs into this again) wolfriders grow fast into a long and glorious summer. Vale hms. Okay, /this/ complicates the system. Winnowill snickers. Who? Us? Talk? Ember would put UWers, Gliders and SVers in the culturally slow curve. I'd put *everybody* else in the culturally fast one because -- of exactly that, Winny. Mud says "Hm, Winnie. I'll say that's true for 'mark', or 'announce', in a social sense. I don't know if that applies to the magic (or even physical) sense." Geolin mmm I think some people would claim that there's a different culture curve for every background/tribe -- BUT it's MORE accurate to have TWO than to have ONE. So, sure. Slow and fast. Vale says "Man, this will play hell with the formula." Winnowill says "That's why I was thinking of grouping races, and having seperate magic setting regs" Ember thinks. Vale, I'm pretty sure we can come up with a way to simplify it. Lemme just think. Vale is predicting about a year for this system to be recalculated and done, but he can do it. Winnowill would set gliders, UWers and SVers in a slower algorithm. WRs, Sea-elves, Go-Backs(for the sheer fact they have to grow fast) would be in the faster sequence Ember nods at Winny. Picture has connected. Ember would set them in that, and have them increase the same amount overall, but over 50 IC years instead of 20, maybe. Geolin yeah. Vale says "Hm. I could do that." Geolin thinks that wouldn't take forever, and help could probably be procured if desired. Vale says "Okay, here's how the system works now:" Vale says "Theres a formula. It takes in numbers. La la la, okay, I need to update this wolfrider one year. They're 16 going on 17 (haha). Hmm, sending... sending... how good are Wolfriders at sending? 10? Okay, so I'll put 10, 16yrs, 1 yr increase into the system. It comes out with a number that is added to their magic score." Vale says "If they're below a certain age (20) it /doubles/ the increase." Vale says "By the time an elf reaches, oh, about 100, they're not getting even a point increase per year anymore. That's the kind of formula it is." Vale says "So kids from 0-10 get ultrahyper increases, 11-20 get pretty nice increases, and 20-50 it starts to level out." Winnowill says "Which badly hurts those of us who live longer." -- Does it? This is an unfortunate case of math vs. fiction. - Vale -- Vale says "Yeah, I thought of that, but couldn't think of a way around it. Remember this is /on mush/ RP time. Chargen works differently." Winnowill nods. Geolin mmmm so if we have two learning curves we get around this living longer problem. Vale says "Also remember that some pretty young folk (Wolfriders, eg.) have some pretty buff magics pretty young. I can boost the system a tad without affecting the younger folk, but those in their thousands will only be getting one point raise per 100 years or so. And that's just the 'auto' raises. Says nothing of RP." Vale says "There's a second problem. What happens if a 25 year old Underworlder 'child' moves into a holt where he's socially 'adult'? He suddenly loses his 'child' learning curve privs." Winnowill would think it depended on how long he stayed out of his normal 'habitat' Natil poofs darkly into existence. Silverdew has arrived. Vale says "Okay. Has everyone said everything they want to say?" Geolin is really into zones, still. Likes two social curves, one genetic, a combination of one of each for magic increase purposes. I think that's it. Silverdew wonders what's been discussed- in brief please. Vale says "How magics are gained. What factors into their learning. What age has to do with it." Silverdew knows that, anything been decided? Ember nope Vale says "Well, as this is a Chiefmeet and not a Wizmeet, no. But I have a very clear idea of what people expect, now." Silverdew oh goods. Vale says "I can't guarentee people will get it, but I will say a serious effort will be made. Sacrifices will be made on both sides of the fence. Terms will be redefined. Etcetera. The world will mature, basically." Vale says "Anyone gotta problem wit dis?" Mud zooms, g'night, sweet dreams, behave yourselfs. Mud has disconnected. Winnowill says "As long as it seems reasonable to all, I see nothing wrong with it" Ember says "'reasonable to all'" Vale says "Well that's it, Winnowill. Some things won't be reasonable to all." Ember says "that's up there with green men on mars and Elvis working at McDonalds." Vale nudges Ember. Ember says "Reasonable to *most*." Winnowill said seems Ember would be satisfied with seems reasonable to *most*. :) Vale would be satisified with having a life. ----- THE LOG ENDS ----- At this point it was almost midnight and no one had anything much else to say. I had taken an hour and a half or two hours out for personal business (a life, mostly) and had started at about noon. No one should sit and try to figure out a single concept for twelve hours straight, unless they're an assistant manager in retail. (I really feel sorry for those people.) Some people decided not to show, some people couldn't, and some people just had no idea what to say. But there has to be a line drawn where enough ideas are gathered and something starts. Starts again, in this case. If anyone has an question or a view not represented in these logs, please email me (jenkins@iwaynet.net) and I'll explain or take it into account.